As the excellent band Show of Hands put it, 'it's my flag too and I want it back'. I've just been in Switzerland where the flag is displayed everywhere without any of the extremist baggage it's acquired in the UK. As for Jenrick playing upthe supposeed sexual threat that immigrants pose, that is the same route that led to lynchigs like Emmett Till's in the US in the 1950s. And while I'm wary of crying 'Nazi' too easily, Hilter's Mein Kampf does it too. I have never known a politician in a mainstream British party stoop so low. Shame on him.
I've been putting a very similar question to lots of people much cleverer than me in recent months and have not yet had a satisfactory answer (when should we ring the 'fascist' alarm?). It seems to me there is a very real danger that society will stick with the 'not yet' position right up to the point when the fascists take power...which, of course, they will use to ensure no-one is able to ring that alarm with any meaningful effect. (See Trump's attempts to systematically silence all opposition, whether institutional or individual.)
Very pertinentcarticle. I would add that all this media,obsession with small boats is diverting people from the real number one crisis, the climate.emergency.
Re George Smith's comment, as someone who wants Great Britain to remain politically one, I fear Farage et all are playing ( deliberately?) Into the Nationalist's hands.
Thanks, Nina. And yes, the climate emergency and lots of other significant issues we really need to get an urgent grip on. So much energy wasted on these distractions while the real threats to our future go unaddressed.
(I'm sure I don't need to tell you what we at Open Britain think about your EU point! 😊)
Climate Change is happening and the feedback loops are accelerating the rise of extreme events. How soon by how much is debatable but there are every indications is it is happening far faster than even moderate view have suggested.
Which leads me on to other even more extremes consequences we should be talking about, bracing ourselves and making plans for. Just 1M sea level rise is going to inundate coastal communities who need to move out - to where? But it wont be just 1M rise, then what how many displaced societies to go to where?
Climate extremes are now threatening the world basic food production. When the producers starve and cannot manage their fields where will the rich west go to buy the food they expect as their birthright?
Then there is the rampant inequality, that cancerous curse that is destroying our essential societal glue holding it together. Not just the world riches hoovering up excess wealth displays, but the rich west taking as their right a disproportionate amount of world assets. This 8B rising to 10B population that expects to enjoy at some time the comfortable lifestyle they see in the west. There is every potential for hostile conflict out of this immoral disparity.
Worse still our very world economy is based on expanding consumerism. When 8B people all expect to eat, be housed, to have phones the need for raw resources to furnish those wants (for economic stability) will have exhausted what out planet can provide. Some calculations show we have already passed that point.
So some big issues are there, clearly visible, We need as a society to be talking rationally about them and planning for a survivable future.
This is an excellent place to get those discussions going.
what makes you, just your decision , that we shld be back in the EU . No we shld not. There was democratic vote, and, remember, we voted to leave. Farage is correct .
Hi DeeDee. What matters is not what you personally think, or what I personally think, but what the British people as a whole think and how their views are reflected in the decisions made by the governments we elect. Obviously, not everyone thinks the same way and all views need to be listened to as those decisions are made. Essentially, that's all a democratic system is supposed to do. At the moment, more than 60% of British people think Brexit was a mistake, and very many of those think we might be better off back in the EU. The British people can't be ignored...not if we want to continue thinking we live in a democracy.
And I must say that, if you look beyond the slick TV personality image Farage has created, the £2000 suits and the 'ordinary bloke in the pub' schtick (he's not an ordinary bloke, not by a long chalk...he's an extremely wealthy man, with extremely powerful friends who doesn't face any of the life challenges ordinary people face every day) you'll find that he's not really correct about much, beyond his identification of the major problems that exist in our country...which, frankly, anyone with their eyes open can see.
..I agree it does matter what the British people think .. and when I last checked ..I was a British citizen ..soooooo my view does count and do does yours .
I don't like the fact that you want to dismiss my opinion. My view. Last time I checked on that front, I'm still entitled to a view and opinion .
Alas,...if this Government continues with their two tier policing etc ...I might be agreeing with you..It's going that way under two tier Keith Starlin.. getting locked up for hurty words in tweets . Police knocking at your door .it's surreal.
This government was elected, with the worst turnout ever,. 33% is not a majority. People were sick of the Tories . Hence, voting apathy took over the last dire election .
They are an embarrassment to this country on a world stage and I have never known such sleaze from a political party.
It's a bit rich when people like you say "all views" need to be listed to ..so why are you grilling me on my views ... Is it because they are not in line with yrs.
52% voted to leave the EU and the main reason was mass immigration . Today, the biggest issue ,10 years on , is still mass legal and illegal Immigration.
Brexit, you ,mean BRINO, and all informed people know that . Brexit was never delivered. The Tories did nothing ..because Labour also put that many obstacles in their way . Boris Johnson etc were a disgrace also. ..
I don't know know where you've got your poll from 60% want back in the EU . . I didn't cast my vote in that poll. Was it all remoaners that were asked, .. Anna Soubrey, or Michael Heseltine.... Even yourself maybe.
We've just got a fantastic trade deal with USA.... Not France, not Germany.....yes... UK worth £150bil ..because we're not in the EU ...
(From BBC site ..). I dont watch that Bull.. but, thought it might mean more to you ..
"US firms pledge £150bn investment in UK as tech deal signed."
What else .....Mr Farage and his " slick 2k suits" .. I really don't know how you have the cheek to go there .
Starmer took £100k of freebies .. his suits, his glasses, his wife's dresses ,. Reeves. Thousands for concert tickets etc .. Angie 3 houses Rayner ... .. champagne socialists ..
Really I do think ..leave Mr Farage in his nice suits ..(that he's paid for)..and his lovely UK Union Jack socks..any probs there. .
So when you're talking about every day folk ..yep, I feel it too . I'm getting taxed taxed ..I dont claim benefits, I don't get a free mobile phone or PIP..etc . I've worked ..all my life since I was 17 . Never claimed a thing.
I take umbrage when my tax money is sent all over the place .... I take umbrage when it's wasted in legal aid for every illegal etc ..for every hotel etc ..and worst of all I'm heartbroken for the rape of young girls in this country for decades . Which continues todate.
All them in power, turned a blind eye. It's not over yet .. and I hope Mr Farage gets to be the next P M, and that one thing he will do, amongst other things , is deliver justice to these poor, poor girls.
Unfortunately, I can only see some people , with blinkers on .. tunnel vision .. will not be conducive to achieving again, the success of our once great country . . Let's put the Great back in Britain .Vote REFORM UK ..we need change .
Sadly, very true, Jo. I suppose one crumb of optimism might lie in the fact that, with the shift from the Union Jack to the St George's Cross, they show us that their potential audience is even smaller than it was back then.
But the St George flag as opposed to the Union Jack encourages English separatism, and encourages those who want break up our politically integrated island ( as opposed to the UK, as N I will logically unite withe Republic at some time)
I think that Reform is just the BNP with another name .We saw how Hitler whipped up hatred for Jewish people amongst the German population.I am so worried and saddened that Farage is using the same tactics against immigrants .
Thanks for this article Mark. I for one was a bit dismayed by the BBC's portrayal of the English flag displays as 'non threatening', maybe it wasn't every flag raisers intention but the impact of whole streets and estates is very like the example you quote from North Ireland, which was clearly about demarcation.
Thank you, Fiona. And you raise an important point about the signals being sent by these flags and the media commentary that goes with them.
I was a civil servant in a former life and I was taught that, when communicating anything in public, the objective was NOT to speak/write to be understood but rather so that it was impossible to be misunderstood. It's a very high bar - especially in this world of soundbites and short attention spans - but it's a useful thing to aspire to. But why am I telling you this...?!
Because I often analyse the signals sent by the words/actions of the far-right, seeking any hint of evidence to back-up their claims that they're not, for example, racist or seeking to incite violence. If they truly wanted to draw a line between some legitimate concern and the darker motives some of us think lie behind their words/deeds, surely that would be apparent in everything they do and say? But it isn't. Not by a long chalk. And I would argue that it's therefore reasonable to infer that they don't in fact wish to distance themselves in that way, and that any characterisation of this flag nonsense as 'non threatening' is either overly optimistic or downright naive. Either way, not what we should expect from an institution such as the BBC.
I may have been born in England, and have once again settled in England. However, I voted Remain in 2016 because I didn't believe the lies from Farage, Johnson and the rest of the Brexit teams. Brexit has been an unmitigated disaster and was a case of ENGLAND shooting itself in the foot. Scotland and Northern Ireland voted overwhelmingly to remain in Europe. Since being brought up and educated in Scotland (and still having the accent to prove it) I would love to return to an Independent Scotland at the heart of a Europe dedicated to stopping the hatred spewed by those few you mentioned. My flag is still the Saltire and Scotland knows that immigrants are the lifeblood that fuels patriotism in every nation.
This nationalism is being deliberately stirred to get Trump friendly Farage into Downing Street. Who wants him there? Why US based interests in fossil fuels, animal ag, pharma, arms, AI, tech, media and finance of course.
We don't need any kind of patriotism. We need to realise that we're all one humanity, all Earthlings and not different, better or worse at all. All one. We need to tackle the climate crisis as well as prepare for the coming agricultural failures and mass migrations in the next few years.
The way the US interests are prepping is by building walls, shoring up coastlines and getting the public ready to shoot the poor and people from the global south at the borders.
So many "Ugly Politix" emails reflect my opinions. I agree with almost everything you say. I just don't see how Proportional Representation is the answer. It will give the extremists a formal political platform in Parliament and some spurious legitimacy.
Faragiste's are iconoclasts. they offer no legitimate solutions and they should be taken to task at every opportunity. Mainstream media are guilty of a dereliction of duty in this respect and it's high time we had some old school 70's satirists pointing out their ridiculous claims.
That said, we have a social housing crisis in the UK that fates back to Thatcherism when councils were prevented from reinvesting money from the sale of council houses in the provision of new stock.
I've said it all below: we need people to people the UK; we need them even more for the sake of our own humanity and humanitarianism; since the horrors of the wartime and post-war refugee crisis, they have a legal right to come here (1951 at latest). Let's hear it for people, not for narrow-minded hatred!
Terrific well argued, but the haters are making too much noise, getting too much media coverage.
I wish there could be more of this rational voice on television, eloquently presenting the case for genuine patriotism - to counteract the poison of Jenrick, Farage, Beaverman, Robinson, etc.
When Oscar Wilde said that "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel", today he would have pointed that barb at the EDL, BNF, Farage & Reform UK; not the proud patriotism of Ukraine, which is reminiscent of that proud patriotism the people of the UK displayed during WWII.
Ukraine is a nation in a state of major emergency, facing an enemy devoid of any common sense or simple human kindness. I don’t know whether that actually may be interpreted as bearing comparison to the London festivities. The all to real danger of war unifies people: the absurd cultural war for political self-advancement, as applied by the people mentioned in the (thought provoking) article is in fact fellow-Brits taking the position of an enemy against other British people.
Let me bore you to death again (sincerely sorry) by mentioning a quite similar sort of folk-fest, but with a maritime character, that took place in Amsterdam. It was the Sail 2025 manifestation. There is a time-lapse video of the arrival of the windjammers as they sail past Central Station. The struggle to get through the yachts and other ships is worth the time to watch it. All in a wonderfully good mood; no complaints about anything at all. Wish with all my heart I had been there!
Okay, what kind of patriotism motivates Ukrainians to fight against the invader? Is it a feeling that Ukrainians are an ethnic group with a common history and a shared land? Or is it a love of “Ukrainian values” and diversity? I think you know it is the former. In other words, their patriotism is similar to that of the British right wingers you deplore.
As the excellent band Show of Hands put it, 'it's my flag too and I want it back'. I've just been in Switzerland where the flag is displayed everywhere without any of the extremist baggage it's acquired in the UK. As for Jenrick playing upthe supposeed sexual threat that immigrants pose, that is the same route that led to lynchigs like Emmett Till's in the US in the 1950s. And while I'm wary of crying 'Nazi' too easily, Hilter's Mein Kampf does it too. I have never known a politician in a mainstream British party stoop so low. Shame on him.
I've been putting a very similar question to lots of people much cleverer than me in recent months and have not yet had a satisfactory answer (when should we ring the 'fascist' alarm?). It seems to me there is a very real danger that society will stick with the 'not yet' position right up to the point when the fascists take power...which, of course, they will use to ensure no-one is able to ring that alarm with any meaningful effect. (See Trump's attempts to systematically silence all opposition, whether institutional or individual.)
Very pertinentcarticle. I would add that all this media,obsession with small boats is diverting people from the real number one crisis, the climate.emergency.
Re George Smith's comment, as someone who wants Great Britain to remain politically one, I fear Farage et all are playing ( deliberately?) Into the Nationalist's hands.
We need to be back in the EU as soon as possible
Thanks, Nina. And yes, the climate emergency and lots of other significant issues we really need to get an urgent grip on. So much energy wasted on these distractions while the real threats to our future go unaddressed.
(I'm sure I don't need to tell you what we at Open Britain think about your EU point! 😊)
Climate Change is happening and the feedback loops are accelerating the rise of extreme events. How soon by how much is debatable but there are every indications is it is happening far faster than even moderate view have suggested.
Which leads me on to other even more extremes consequences we should be talking about, bracing ourselves and making plans for. Just 1M sea level rise is going to inundate coastal communities who need to move out - to where? But it wont be just 1M rise, then what how many displaced societies to go to where?
Climate extremes are now threatening the world basic food production. When the producers starve and cannot manage their fields where will the rich west go to buy the food they expect as their birthright?
Then there is the rampant inequality, that cancerous curse that is destroying our essential societal glue holding it together. Not just the world riches hoovering up excess wealth displays, but the rich west taking as their right a disproportionate amount of world assets. This 8B rising to 10B population that expects to enjoy at some time the comfortable lifestyle they see in the west. There is every potential for hostile conflict out of this immoral disparity.
Worse still our very world economy is based on expanding consumerism. When 8B people all expect to eat, be housed, to have phones the need for raw resources to furnish those wants (for economic stability) will have exhausted what out planet can provide. Some calculations show we have already passed that point.
So some big issues are there, clearly visible, We need as a society to be talking rationally about them and planning for a survivable future.
This is an excellent place to get those discussions going.
We will not be going back into the EU . We do not need the EU .
I wish people wld move on . Make the most of what we have . Be Proud to be British . Fly our flag ..
what makes you, just your decision , that we shld be back in the EU . No we shld not. There was democratic vote, and, remember, we voted to leave. Farage is correct .
Hi DeeDee. What matters is not what you personally think, or what I personally think, but what the British people as a whole think and how their views are reflected in the decisions made by the governments we elect. Obviously, not everyone thinks the same way and all views need to be listened to as those decisions are made. Essentially, that's all a democratic system is supposed to do. At the moment, more than 60% of British people think Brexit was a mistake, and very many of those think we might be better off back in the EU. The British people can't be ignored...not if we want to continue thinking we live in a democracy.
And I must say that, if you look beyond the slick TV personality image Farage has created, the £2000 suits and the 'ordinary bloke in the pub' schtick (he's not an ordinary bloke, not by a long chalk...he's an extremely wealthy man, with extremely powerful friends who doesn't face any of the life challenges ordinary people face every day) you'll find that he's not really correct about much, beyond his identification of the major problems that exist in our country...which, frankly, anyone with their eyes open can see.
Hi
..I agree it does matter what the British people think .. and when I last checked ..I was a British citizen ..soooooo my view does count and do does yours .
I don't like the fact that you want to dismiss my opinion. My view. Last time I checked on that front, I'm still entitled to a view and opinion .
Alas,...if this Government continues with their two tier policing etc ...I might be agreeing with you..It's going that way under two tier Keith Starlin.. getting locked up for hurty words in tweets . Police knocking at your door .it's surreal.
This government was elected, with the worst turnout ever,. 33% is not a majority. People were sick of the Tories . Hence, voting apathy took over the last dire election .
They are an embarrassment to this country on a world stage and I have never known such sleaze from a political party.
It's a bit rich when people like you say "all views" need to be listed to ..so why are you grilling me on my views ... Is it because they are not in line with yrs.
52% voted to leave the EU and the main reason was mass immigration . Today, the biggest issue ,10 years on , is still mass legal and illegal Immigration.
Brexit, you ,mean BRINO, and all informed people know that . Brexit was never delivered. The Tories did nothing ..because Labour also put that many obstacles in their way . Boris Johnson etc were a disgrace also. ..
I don't know know where you've got your poll from 60% want back in the EU . . I didn't cast my vote in that poll. Was it all remoaners that were asked, .. Anna Soubrey, or Michael Heseltine.... Even yourself maybe.
We've just got a fantastic trade deal with USA.... Not France, not Germany.....yes... UK worth £150bil ..because we're not in the EU ...
(From BBC site ..). I dont watch that Bull.. but, thought it might mean more to you ..
"US firms pledge £150bn investment in UK as tech deal signed."
What else .....Mr Farage and his " slick 2k suits" .. I really don't know how you have the cheek to go there .
Starmer took £100k of freebies .. his suits, his glasses, his wife's dresses ,. Reeves. Thousands for concert tickets etc .. Angie 3 houses Rayner ... .. champagne socialists ..
Really I do think ..leave Mr Farage in his nice suits ..(that he's paid for)..and his lovely UK Union Jack socks..any probs there. .
So when you're talking about every day folk ..yep, I feel it too . I'm getting taxed taxed ..I dont claim benefits, I don't get a free mobile phone or PIP..etc . I've worked ..all my life since I was 17 . Never claimed a thing.
I take umbrage when my tax money is sent all over the place .... I take umbrage when it's wasted in legal aid for every illegal etc ..for every hotel etc ..and worst of all I'm heartbroken for the rape of young girls in this country for decades . Which continues todate.
All them in power, turned a blind eye. It's not over yet .. and I hope Mr Farage gets to be the next P M, and that one thing he will do, amongst other things , is deliver justice to these poor, poor girls.
Unfortunately, I can only see some people , with blinkers on .. tunnel vision .. will not be conducive to achieving again, the success of our once great country . . Let's put the Great back in Britain .Vote REFORM UK ..we need change .
DD
I think that it's You that need to stop being so hypocritical .
When patriotism becomes nationalism. We grew up with our flag being hijacked racist skinheads and now it's happening again.😡
Sadly, very true, Jo. I suppose one crumb of optimism might lie in the fact that, with the shift from the Union Jack to the St George's Cross, they show us that their potential audience is even smaller than it was back then.
But the St George flag as opposed to the Union Jack encourages English separatism, and encourages those who want break up our politically integrated island ( as opposed to the UK, as N I will logically unite withe Republic at some time)
I think that Reform is just the BNP with another name .We saw how Hitler whipped up hatred for Jewish people amongst the German population.I am so worried and saddened that Farage is using the same tactics against immigrants .
That’s exactly why I feel fear whenever I see those flags. It became an imbedded reaction which is hard to shift.
Thanks for this article Mark. I for one was a bit dismayed by the BBC's portrayal of the English flag displays as 'non threatening', maybe it wasn't every flag raisers intention but the impact of whole streets and estates is very like the example you quote from North Ireland, which was clearly about demarcation.
Thank you, Fiona. And you raise an important point about the signals being sent by these flags and the media commentary that goes with them.
I was a civil servant in a former life and I was taught that, when communicating anything in public, the objective was NOT to speak/write to be understood but rather so that it was impossible to be misunderstood. It's a very high bar - especially in this world of soundbites and short attention spans - but it's a useful thing to aspire to. But why am I telling you this...?!
Because I often analyse the signals sent by the words/actions of the far-right, seeking any hint of evidence to back-up their claims that they're not, for example, racist or seeking to incite violence. If they truly wanted to draw a line between some legitimate concern and the darker motives some of us think lie behind their words/deeds, surely that would be apparent in everything they do and say? But it isn't. Not by a long chalk. And I would argue that it's therefore reasonable to infer that they don't in fact wish to distance themselves in that way, and that any characterisation of this flag nonsense as 'non threatening' is either overly optimistic or downright naive. Either way, not what we should expect from an institution such as the BBC.
Sorry...very long response!
I totally understand why people are reacting the way they are, I'm afraid the Labour Government are not helping at all.
I'm quite happy with legal immigration but not illegal.
I voted to stay in the EU and that's where we should be, I didn't agree to BREXIT, because of that we've lost some excellent European workers.
Im definitely not a Farage voter nor an I Labour.
I also feel that climate change needs to be taken seriously.
A powerful article
Thank you, Judith. Very kind. 🙏
A good argument for Scotland becoming independent from the UK.
Now that's a whole different can of worms, George! 🤣
The same argument applies.
I may have been born in England, and have once again settled in England. However, I voted Remain in 2016 because I didn't believe the lies from Farage, Johnson and the rest of the Brexit teams. Brexit has been an unmitigated disaster and was a case of ENGLAND shooting itself in the foot. Scotland and Northern Ireland voted overwhelmingly to remain in Europe. Since being brought up and educated in Scotland (and still having the accent to prove it) I would love to return to an Independent Scotland at the heart of a Europe dedicated to stopping the hatred spewed by those few you mentioned. My flag is still the Saltire and Scotland knows that immigrants are the lifeblood that fuels patriotism in every nation.
This nationalism is being deliberately stirred to get Trump friendly Farage into Downing Street. Who wants him there? Why US based interests in fossil fuels, animal ag, pharma, arms, AI, tech, media and finance of course.
We don't need any kind of patriotism. We need to realise that we're all one humanity, all Earthlings and not different, better or worse at all. All one. We need to tackle the climate crisis as well as prepare for the coming agricultural failures and mass migrations in the next few years.
The way the US interests are prepping is by building walls, shoring up coastlines and getting the public ready to shoot the poor and people from the global south at the borders.
So many "Ugly Politix" emails reflect my opinions. I agree with almost everything you say. I just don't see how Proportional Representation is the answer. It will give the extremists a formal political platform in Parliament and some spurious legitimacy.
Faragiste's are iconoclasts. they offer no legitimate solutions and they should be taken to task at every opportunity. Mainstream media are guilty of a dereliction of duty in this respect and it's high time we had some old school 70's satirists pointing out their ridiculous claims.
That said, we have a social housing crisis in the UK that fates back to Thatcherism when councils were prevented from reinvesting money from the sale of council houses in the provision of new stock.
I've said it all below: we need people to people the UK; we need them even more for the sake of our own humanity and humanitarianism; since the horrors of the wartime and post-war refugee crisis, they have a legal right to come here (1951 at latest). Let's hear it for people, not for narrow-minded hatred!
Terrific well argued, but the haters are making too much noise, getting too much media coverage.
I wish there could be more of this rational voice on television, eloquently presenting the case for genuine patriotism - to counteract the poison of Jenrick, Farage, Beaverman, Robinson, etc.
When Oscar Wilde said that "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel", today he would have pointed that barb at the EDL, BNF, Farage & Reform UK; not the proud patriotism of Ukraine, which is reminiscent of that proud patriotism the people of the UK displayed during WWII.
Ukraine is a nation in a state of major emergency, facing an enemy devoid of any common sense or simple human kindness. I don’t know whether that actually may be interpreted as bearing comparison to the London festivities. The all to real danger of war unifies people: the absurd cultural war for political self-advancement, as applied by the people mentioned in the (thought provoking) article is in fact fellow-Brits taking the position of an enemy against other British people.
Let me bore you to death again (sincerely sorry) by mentioning a quite similar sort of folk-fest, but with a maritime character, that took place in Amsterdam. It was the Sail 2025 manifestation. There is a time-lapse video of the arrival of the windjammers as they sail past Central Station. The struggle to get through the yachts and other ships is worth the time to watch it. All in a wonderfully good mood; no complaints about anything at all. Wish with all my heart I had been there!
I loved the article, agree with it 100% and found the historical references to the lessons England should have learned spot on. Keep it up!
Okay, what kind of patriotism motivates Ukrainians to fight against the invader? Is it a feeling that Ukrainians are an ethnic group with a common history and a shared land? Or is it a love of “Ukrainian values” and diversity? I think you know it is the former. In other words, their patriotism is similar to that of the British right wingers you deplore.